2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: Uhm, so? That still doesn't tell me if the image is actually legal on Elftown to use.

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: I obviously don't know where the image came from if I just said that someone else made the banner....here's an idea...why don't you send [Malnu], the guy who made the banner, a message, instead of interrogating me

2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: Uhm hello you started being all offended that we commented on the banner. We kept talking about it, because NO supporter actually commented and said: yes, we need a better banner. You didn't say [Malnu] made this one, because there are tons of names on this wiki and the other banner with the picture was not made by him and looks illegal. So I am actually doing my job checking up on this wiki. Thank you for your cooperation.

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: I never said I was offended, I was mearly irritated that everyone would rather sit around complaining about it instead of trying to fix the problem, second, I stated that at the top of the page, if you took the time to look it states in large bold letters that Malnu has made a diffrent banner for this page, thirdly I'm not cooperating with you, you simply irritate me by not "looking before you leap" as the term goes. G'day *and yes, I'm a irritable jerk, but I'm okay with that*

2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: How would you expect us to do something about it? We are not on the wiki and ya'know I actually did make something: <URL:stuff/thestraightway.jpg>! I am not good enough to fix the lines. However did the owners respond? Nope. I asked you who made it Before you pointed to the top and you acted like I should've guessed it or something. THEN I asked again, because I wasn't sure you meant [Malnu] since the image looks illegal. But if he made it, it's cool.

2005-02-01 [Rizzen]: did you message the owner of the page telling him you made a banner? Unfortunatelly, the page owner is to lazy to do anything himself, so you need to take a little initiative

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: This is stupid....i feel like a first grader

2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: Nah, but I would think though someone with this kind of shout out, would care. But guess I was wrong.

2005-02-01 [Rizzen]: eh. It's not the spelling we're conerned about, but what they try to say. If others cant get over that, then I pity them

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: Arguing back and forth like children isn't my idea of showing concern, i've tried to show you my point, and i've supplies the page with an alternative...my work here is done

2005-02-01 [Rizzen]: our work is never done. Mabey here all I do is argue, but on the internet when only text is possible, arguing/debate is all that can be done. Outside of elftown I do far more

2005-02-01 [Cina]: This is my last post on this wiki. Spelling is important. The most important thing that employers look at on a resume is spelling. Using "Plz" and "w/o" does not make you more efficient; it makes you out to be lazy, unless you are talking casually with friends. As I stated in my first post, I love your cause. Good day and God bless!

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: the fact was, he was lazy, some people don't care about using slang, thats his deal, just stop beating a dead horse

2005-02-01 [Rizzen]: what we should do is see if Blackfire would consent to giving one of the active members control of the page

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: you could do that...I run the straight way over in ElfPack...its easy enough

2005-02-01 [Rizzen]: aye, it's pretty friggin easy to run a wiki. to bad Blackfire is so lazy

2005-02-01 [rocker reject]: *dances randomly*

2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: It wasn't arguing actually until you came. That's the whole thing.

2005-02-01 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: i'm done with that whole thing..i'm actually jammin now to "weapon of choice" by fat boy slim

2005-02-01 [Sunrose]: ooh fat boy slim! ^__^

2005-02-01 [rocker reject]: weeo

2005-02-02 [Kurai Tenma]: ?

2005-02-02 [rocker reject]: i don't know

2005-02-02 [Lioness123]: ^_^

2005-02-02 [rocker reject]: :D

2005-02-02 [Rizzen]: ech, I hate fat boy slim

2005-02-03 [Lioness123]: why is that?

2005-02-03 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: i don't really know who or what they are...its still a rockin' song

2005-02-03 [rocker reject]: lajogakhgoiaehk

2005-02-04 [Radioactive Flea]: Oldies are much better, time tested and triumphed still.

2005-02-04 [Lioness123]: I like orchestra and opera...it never fails to lift my spirit and my mood

2005-02-04 [rocker reject]: i love the oldies! mostly the supremes

2005-02-04 [Radioactive Flea]: Eh, they're alright.

2005-02-04 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: I like oldies too...actually, i'm not into types as much as i am songs..I can listin to pretty much any station as long as it has a good somg on

2005-02-04 [rocker reject]: i also like the doors.....and a few more :D

2005-02-04 [Radioactive Flea]: Chrystal Ship and Love me Two times.

2005-02-04 [Rizzen]: personally, I'm a fan of metal. Hollywood Metal being the favorite sub-geanre. Opera + orchestra+ speed metal = damn good listening

2005-02-05 [duende_negro]: The Doors... wow.. they really are great! an dwill be...

2005-02-05 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: omg i have a freind who listens to opera lol its awsome

2005-02-05 [duende_negro]: OPERA O_O !

2005-02-05 [deus-ex-machina]: keeping one thing sacred? well, that ideology has gone out the window with the idea of divorce! there is not one sacred thing about a marriage not recognised in the eye of the Church. do you realise that there are benefits to be had in marriage? do you realise that all gay people want are these benefits for the most part? aren't all people eligible for everything the average person can have? by no means do i mean there should gay marriages in churches, but why not in registry offices? really... i could understand why you would choose to be against it if people chose to be homosexual, but honestly, they don't. they feel just as inclined to have sex with members of the same sex as you do with

2005-02-05 [deus-ex-machina]: to members of the opposite sex. some of you have such flawed arguments that one has no choice but to believe that you use the banners on this wiki to express your homophobia. 'marriage' is not the correct term for what gay people deserve. 'civil union' perhaps - may be more fitting - with no religion involved. what right do people have to deny others equal rights in "the free-est country in the world" *cough*bullshit*cough*, the USA? and really - if you don't want to have people harrass you... for god's sake, have someone make you better looking banners. i'm not gay myself, just a little eccentric, but my lord, those banners would want me to slap the taste out of your mouths anyday...

2005-02-05 [deus-ex-machina]: the last two banners are much more to my taste :P

2005-02-06 [duende_negro]: Well that's right...I mean what you said about "choosing". Homosexual people don't choose...you know, you don't just go and say "hey today I like men...tomorrow I'll go for women". YOu just don't, I mean you can't. thought, there are heterosexual people who have sex with the same sex...and they are not homosexual. I won't say I'm against homosexua unions. I'm in this wiki to get to know other points of view and just comment about mine. But I think people don't have to judge because of someting that just hapends... and ideas have to explose.

2005-02-06 [Radioactive Flea]: None of us are afraid of homosexual as homophobia would imply we're just sick of them. . . more to the terms of homopathy.

2005-02-06 [Starna]: Homopathy would mean you care about similarities. That means you approve of it. Take down the blue banner. If you guys are going to promote a way of life, and argue against another, know the difference between "are" and "our". And you should change your group's name. Not everyone who is "straight" is against gay marriage.

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: i'm more disgusted by incest personally... you know, those pictures you took of your brother [Radioactive Flea], are a little suggestive. =D 'macho'? for someone sick of them, you don't seem to have a problem with your brother pulling a pretty gay looking pose.

2005-02-06 [e5hnzwu5]: starna. you mean that we should be Against homosexual marriages@wiki than Straight Way@wiki?

2005-02-06 [Radioactive Flea]: If you'd look closely brother is in quotations. He's really my best friend. Of course that would be beyond your comprehension to even wonder why that would be. And Starna most things ending in "pathy" has to do with a disease or sickness.

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: even so, that does not excuse him from having devil's nipples.

2005-02-06 [Radioactive Flea]: Being outside shirtless in the middle of winter during a level 3 snow storm (still should've been wearing a shirt) almost does.

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: oh, you silly little person... cold weather does not create devil's nipples. hell is hot! silly. he should get them removed, for fear of being condemned to hell. the devil can be seen in him.

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: 1. Feeling; suffering; perception: telepathy. 2. a. Disease: neuropathy. b. A system of treating disease: homeopathy.

2005-02-06 [Radioactive Flea]: Cold weather does create glass cutter nipples. You silly little twit.(I said most things ending in pathy pertain to a disease or sickness, not eveything)

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: 17:18:25 Radioactive Flea: If you'd look closely brother is in quotations. He's really my best friend. Of course that would be beyond your comprehension to even wonder why that would be. And Starna anything ending in "pathy" has to do with a disease or sickness. -- oh, really?

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: And I'm not the twit here... I'm not the one failing to recognise that there is a difference between what I refer to as devil nipples and what you think are the result of cold weather. Please - don't fuck with the mentally superior.

2005-02-06 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Aw come on people!Is the difference really that important? The world won't end if you ignore the difference will it?

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: with that belief, why are you a part of this wiki?

2005-02-06 [HiddenFire]: I don't get what nipples has to do with anying.

2005-02-06 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: wow you poor people basing your beliefs on nipples????? no wonder christianity as we know it will fall

2005-02-06 [deus-ex-machina]: lmao... i didn't think anyone would think anything of it... wow. =D i shall be using that from now on. devil nipples. devil nipples.

2005-02-07 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: lmao

2005-02-07 [TalismanicIdols]: Look at this fucking hate. you wanna change the world and make it a nicer place? OPEN YOUR EYES. hate is bullshit, and so is this Wiki page. I agree with [Starna]... learn how to use the English language before you attack a people because of their beliefs... isn't that right, Blackfire? the fact that you're only 14 years old really makes this laughable. Come to my page and leave a message explaining your stances if you wish to continue this.

2005-02-07 [duende_negro]: I'll have to agree...even if hate is all over the world. Some people think they are so smart...but they haven't got a life yet, and they need to experience more.Most of the world is following a plan...and that makes us robots then. It's like this " You act then you think" Or "you kill then you ask", It's pathetic. Sometimes I just say "hey I don't know much... but what I know is what I'll discuss" I won't follow something if I don't know what it is...Ow and I must say, my english is not to good because is not my first language.

2005-02-07 [duende_negro]: Ow.. and by the way the red banner may not be adress to all....When you say "Adam and Eve" you're talking about religion, the bible... not all people belive in that. And not all straight ones belive in it either.

2005-02-07 [HiddenFire]: as annoying as their banners are... it's been covered several times before. Currently they are working or producing more mature and appropriate banners. I can't help but wonder though... are those images personal photos or at least royalty free? Just out of curiosity.

2005-02-07 [Sunrose]: Yes I wondered, but by wondering I already offended some people apparantly...

2005-02-07 [HiddenFire]: I'm not sure if there are any image that would suit your needs but I might be able to find some royalty free image galleries.

2005-02-08 [Radioactive Flea]: You're english is much better than most that speak it. They get lazy making themselves look foolish in a lame attempt to look "cool". Though not everyone has religion it's there, as with faith.

2005-02-08 [TalismanicIdols]: I've got a list of complaints and faults listed on this shit on my house, please feel free to check it out. I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh at the fact that we have pre-pubescant little children running their mouths about how people who have lived in this country longer than they have been alive shouldn't have the same rights because they are different, and use a bullshit reason like Religion to charge these accusations. Continue.

2005-02-08 [deus-ex-machina]: I see where you are coming from Steve-o, and I love the fact that [Radioactive Flea] didn't reply to my 'outing' her as a liar. :D

2005-02-08 [Sunrose]: There! I fixed the 2 ffin banners! Hope that will stop the bitching about the spelling ;)

2005-02-08 [HiddenFire]: Maybe it's an optical illusion but those lines don't look straight. LOL, :P </joking>

2005-02-08 [Sunrose]: LMAO! I was about to kick your ass! But I see the joke :P

2005-02-09 [Kurai Tenma]: Good...

2005-02-09 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: What the heck...whats with all the smack above?

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: Excuse me? But I failed to see where you'd called me a liar. I did however find your narcissism blinding in it's falsehood. Just remember my addlepated fiend "There is nothing more foolish than to think you are wiser than someone else."

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: ...You edited your post, then made out that you were right all along, when you weren't. I outed you by posting your unedited comment. So eep.. shush your mouth, you're making it worse for yourself. Who said that 'quote'? Modest idiot, twas he.

2005-02-09 [Kurai Tenma]: I don't see how come people openly criticize the Christian population and thwart its hold on humanity because you say it "offends" you. But, you do your best at creating laws and standards that don't offend any religious belief except for Christianity... Hmm.... How can you "offend" just one religion...

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: You're just making yourself out to be an over inflated windbag. And that quote came from a Hindu holy man who studied under Budda. [Kurai Tenma] no one wants to acknowledge a higher power if they did then they'd be held responsible for their action instead of blaming nature for what they've created. When a truth is put out there for anyone to see those that know it's true either accept it or try to remove it at all costs.

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: Am I? ;) And please, don't generalise the whole atheist/agnostic population which something that doesn't apply for all. Actually, you seem quite hypocritical, calling me a windbag... but i suppose your bag would be full of fecal matter, rather than wind.

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: No sorry there lovey. . . I've used the bathroom once today, reminded me of you.

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: That was so lame... I rarely use lame... But I did just laugh out loud at your lameness.

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: I always knew I was a rarity

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: Indeed you are. *pats you on the head*

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: *Sprays the thing in the eyes with bug spray* Damn I'd hope you'd dissapear! Maybe I should get and acid based degreaser . . . . that should work.

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: Nah... maybe some 'anti superior spray' would get the work done, but since that doesn't exist and you obviously lack the capacity to invent such a thing... you're stuck with me until you crack. It's like Highlander. Ever see those films? Except two arrogant people start off instead of immortals... and the better person wins, while the other... well... dies. I don't plan on killing you, but it would be nice to show you your ego is an undeserved one. :)

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: As is yours. I don't crack easy so you're up for a rough ride youngling. Maybe in a few years and several more life experiences, maybe you could match up though highly unlikely.

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: While we're in the process of trying to "break" eachother here's a snippet of fun: http://www.rathergood.com/lalala/

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: You're 18... barely act it. I'm 16... and I've debated, argued with, and smashed apart people who seem to have more on their side than generalisations. See, you're underestimating me. Tsch tsch. Naughty girl... I suppose you accepted the challenge? It would seem that with your stupidity and my intellect, the age difference is hardly something to consider although it does tell a person what you were like personally at 16... Hmmm, me in two years? Ahhh, I can see it now... at least 10% of the world in my possession... I don't plan on arguing with 16 year olds with far superior intelligence to mine (although such a thing to exist would be near on impossible)

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: I also think we should move somewhere else if we're going to argue and digress from the topic... Why ruin these good peoples wiki with your silly comments?

2005-02-09 [Radioactive Flea]: Oh, I do so see the error in my ways! How you've opened my eyes to how sluggish my brain is, how wrong I am to not decimate a youngling. Though I'm not young enough to know everything or in your case BELIEVE I know everything. You may wish dilute yourself to any consistency you wish, infact I was the same way you are when I was 12.

2005-02-09 [deus-ex-machina]: ...I believe I would know more than what you know, particularly if you are a part of this wiki and look at atheists in the way that you did when gave that despicable explanation of their anti-christianity. If you're like that with everything else... Well, 1-0 to me. Did I say I know everything?

2005-02-09 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: alright..... deus ur ego is HUGE and its really really irritating.... radioactive just.... dont come picking fights its all for the better...

2005-02-09 [duende_negro]: YOu don't know everything...in fact no one does... BUt She maybe knows.. more about something else, I belive that.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: lol, not huge, i can just make it appear that way and it would be irritating since that is the delibrate intent of my replies... as i said, i was more than willing to move to a different wiki, but someone seems to wants to fight on home ground. like i said, i don't know everything... it's a general assumption made by anyone about an arrogant person and yeah... she probably knows more about her own life than i do if you were to think logically... but now, why be so pedantic? :P

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: Can't you ignore?

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: Sorry if I came across as picking a fight. He's been pretending to know everything and hats off to him, he's a great bullshitter. Duende, I've been athiest, pure landian, buddist, pagan, Bundi, and finally back to Christian. It's not a cliche nor generalized way of thought that I have it's my personal experience.

2005-02-10 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: "Hmmm, me in two years? Ahhh, I can see it now... at least 10% of the world in my possession... I don't plan on arguing with 16 year olds with far superior intelligence to mine (although such a thing to exist would be near on impossible)" well that sounds pretty egotisical to me now doesnt it

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: *sigh* did you misread the comment? i said i can make myself appear to be very arrogant... but that doesn't mean i am. and yes, it is a generalised way of thought, you used your own singular, personal experience and applied to everyone else. ego = easy to fake. stupidity/arrogance of others = spurs me into an argument using my own 'ego'. see - i could leave and with a distinct bad taste in my mouth from the general overview of the people here, i might, but it's just a shame... trailer dots, see? i shall say no more.

2005-02-10 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: sorry but ur an idoit lol

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: idiot*

2005-02-10 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: ah yes my shitty spelling lol oh well deal with it

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: Then you'd just as well leave a foul taste in our mouths from a general overview of those against aformentioned stances. I do like those in Bundi, interesting lot they were.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: and no i'm not... my views just conflict with yours. since i'm disagreeing with you, you don't like what i have to say... i'm not saying i'm right, in reference to what i've said directly to you, but i can't see how i'm wrong either. thing is... in other places, she would have been ripped apart and made food for the pigs... it's just lucky you're all banding together and i'm a minority here really.

2005-02-10 [Our Lady of Sorrow]: lucky? no its just the way humanity is i may not agree with the views here but i will get rather pissed at any dickhead who thinks he is the best person on the earth when in fact he is nothing.

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: I wouldn't go about in terrritory where angels fear to tread, it's infected land. We're not not saying we're wrong, just that your stance is juxtaposed of ours. I haven't judged you, I haven't said you're wrong, I've only put a blanket of protection on the beliefs.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: nothing? no one is nothing. there was no fact... and for fucks sake darling... it's not hard to fake arrogance. seriously... i don't think i'm the best person on the earth... i can just ACT that way. :) and yes, it is lucky, as by chance all the people would would be able to defend me are elsewhere. i am on my own in this and you know... while someone can win logically and morally, when the numbers don't match... it's very hard to 'win'.

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: It's no luck, it's human nature to band together. They know better than to come prancing about somewhere where their welcome is short lived and usually overstayed. As with the laws of Bundi, Hindu, and Pure Lands logic morals and science should live peacefully together for they're of the same fabric.

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: I don't care what you say... I'll allways have my point of view... and I can share it, yes. But... I know when I have to shut up. Saying that you aren't an idiot, in a way, makes you one. Even If I don't like what you have to say, i'll have to accep it in a way... "The Straight Way" ? I'm in "LOVE with gays". I'm just here to see what the opposite has to say that's all.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: ...It's past midnight here... They're all offline, it's not that they won't come here. The majority of them are more aggressive than I am and would love to debate this further. And yes, it is human nature to band together, it's just luck that the people who would band together with me are all asleep, that I decided to stay on this late and reply, and thus be the only person on my side of the argument. They don't know better than to come prancing... They like to prance... and dance... and sing!

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: You know.. borring would be.. this wiki..and any other conversation about any other subject without a debate. Don't you find it fun?

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: Then we should have a drum circle. I'll play my djembe they can dance and sing along. It only shows that you don't accept the means to this end.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: No, saying you aren't an idiot, when you've been told you are an idiot, when you know that you aren't, does not make you an idiot. In which way? It's no way logical, lol. Why should I shut up? Why should I back down? You may think an idiot, but I don't and others won't when they see this.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: Ahhh, philosophy. Nice.

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: I don't think you're an idiot, never voiced it never thought it. The older saying goes "It's better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it."

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: Anyway, while I may have made some bad blood in this wiki, it really was for my own amusement. I'll be going in a few minutes, so I just would like to say now, that I hold nothing against any of you... But when you can't sleep... you need something to do. My 'something to do' was wind people up, because I find that to be so much fun... Edit: Ahhh, that sounded bad. Basically, I'm sorry for disrupting the wiki for however long it was... And I did mean to say, that since I have nothing against you, you would hold no particular grudge against me in future.

2005-02-10 [Radioactive Flea]: Really, I thought doing something more constructive would be more of a something to do. You remind me of a guy on here called raff except your spelling is better.

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: But I'm at that point in tiredness where I'm too tired to do anything constructive... as mentioned beforehand, all friends are sleeping... so I can't talk to them either.

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: You can think.... something that many people can't, I have to say.  You're great to discuss with...even if my spelling is a shit because my fist language isn't "old nice english".

2005-02-10 [HiddenFire]: wow... this sure did turn to mud-slinging rather quickly. None of you area actually debating anything anymore...

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: Damn... I do take a time to write... ow well...

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: I have to admit, the one thing I am envious of people here on ET from other countries, is that their second language is so much more developed than my own. I couldn't/wouldn't put forth the effort to take part in a german debate, because it's simply not complex (edit: my knowledge of the language, that is) enough for me to handle. Five years though... I'm not sure how long other countries teach languages... But 3 of those years were spent absolutely hating German lessons so nothing constructive came out of it.

2005-02-10 [duende_negro]: Not everyone can learn that easy languages... se?? even If I've been all my life learning english I'll never get that spelling right.. not even my own language... Well maybe it'0s because I write fast....

2005-02-10 [Rizzen]: hmmm... theres' only one thing I have to say about you'r friends not being here. Bring them on. The most they can do is call us bad names, and unless anyone here is afraid of name calling, your earlier comment of "ripped apart and made food for the pigs" doesn't apply

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: ...now what was the point of that comment when the stuff is now over?

2005-02-10 [iippo]: I promise I will never sleep again! Crikey, I'm up all nights except yesterday and see? I get left out of something this uber! So to avoid any future missing-out-on-such-things-as-this, I will not sleep during the night. *nod* See, now that Deus's people come here, the debate is over (although I greatly enjoyed the devil nipples bit...)

2005-02-10 [Kurai Tenma]: *rolls eyes*

2005-02-10 [iippo]: *waits for debate to strat again* It should, annyyy moment now... *hummhummhumm*

2005-02-10 [Kurai Tenma]: I don't do it.

2005-02-10 [Rizzen]: well, you know our case, so I think you guys have the rubuttle(sp?) at the moment

2005-02-10 [iippo]: Don't misunderstand, I don't think gay people should be allowed to marry in a church. A civil thing is fine and since that's all they want, this wiki is a bit useless (specially 'keep something holy' since a civil thing is not holy, it is mundane, planned for those who can't marry but want to have the same rights and perks as married people do)

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: hee hee, iippo has the same view as me... except the useless wiki bit... you're good to debate with ^.^

2005-02-10 [iippo]: And now deus's people (=me) has to leave this place, because the owner asked her to. Danke, it was lovely, I'll never forget you!

2005-02-10 [Rizzen]: as to the "keep something holy", even in a civil matter it still applyes. I don't know how it works in the states, but up here in Canada, a civil union is still considered marriage, and marriage was created by God. So even the "keeping something holy" applyes to civil union

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: But there would be no holiness involved. No Church... No religion... No God... It's got no church involvement, just like Catholic divorcees cannot marry in a Church twice - it's not given God's blessing or grace...

2005-02-10 [Rizzen]: true, but it is still an offshoot of marriage consituting the joining of two people. As I said, I dont' know how it works outside of Canada, but up here it's pretty much still considered marriage, as the only thing seperating it from the traditional marriage is that instead of a priest, pastor, etc... and a church is a government building and a judge. Both give the same rights. But that's not the point. As I said before, both constitue a joining of two people, which is what marriage was intended for

2005-02-10 [deus-ex-machina]: indeed, but dogmas restrict who can and can't get married. divorce was created by henry viii in england because he wasn't allowed to seperate. the government expands beyond what religion created because while religion set down firm rules, the government hasn't. i know it is the joining of two people, but when you are willing to commit to each other, why not get your relationship recognised when there are benefits to be had? gay people should deserve equal rights in the eyes of the government when it is democratic or at least, not heavily influenced by religious teachings.

2005-02-11 [Rizzen]: actually, you'r wrong about divorce. Henry just created a religion that allowed divorce for whatever reason. Divorce in itself has been around as long as marriage itself. God recognized divorce, but only for the reason of marital unfaithfulness. as for the civil union thing, that's where we differ, I will concede that it is different from traditional marriage, but I just don't think that homosexuals should get the rights to join, either religiously or socially, begin with.

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: why not? descrimination? or do you read into ancient dogmas too much? O.o and yes, i was wrong, but i was aware of what i meant - yadda yadda yadda... can't get a boy child... want a different wife... - still, i'm not sure what people have against homosexuals. they've always existed, but less censorship and less stigma in society have allowed them to be more open. it's societies fault that this issue was brought up in the first place... and therefore, it should be responsible for allowing equal rights. times change and while i respect religion, i think that some beliefs are a little more than old fashioned. sure - within the church and that society, knock yourself out, but why force it onto

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: people who have no interest in religious marriage or even care about religion? if a christian told an atheist by any account that it was wrong for him to marry, when heterosexual atheists were allowed to marry... i would feel some hypocrisy. man and woman, yes... but theres no longer the intent to procreate in some relationships. marriage has been diluted and it's purpose lost in mainstream society. why try and recover it now?

2005-02-11 [Rizzen]: why?

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: eh, you're being a little vague dear.

2005-02-11 [Rizzen]: why? to do as the wiki says, to "keep something holy" as for the rights thing, am I being descriminatory? yes. Why? Because of my faith. Many people however read into that statement far to much though. If you need an explanation on that, just read the description under my first picture on my house

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: 'love the sinner, hate the sin'... now there was a wiki i managed to tear apart. :) see, for all of it, you are holding back a group of people for who they are. thus, descrimination. your religion may allow you to condemn what you have been taught to be wrong, but then, there are these people we call 'atheists'. why should they care what your God told you? it seems you do love you neighbour, as you should, but sometimes, when beliefs within a religion conflict, people sure do have a funny way of showing that love. i understand the whole 'no church marriage, thankyou very much' and as i said, respect it, and from what you've told me, civil marriage is seen in the same way in canada, but...

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: i was always under the impression gay couples were allowed to marry in canada?

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: and i have been asked to leave... i wasn't under the impression that this wiki wasn't made for debates, so, you know, i'll leave. :P bye. if you want to continue anything, message me.

2005-02-11 [Kurai Tenma]: Wait one second! WE ARE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST GAYS? OKAY HOW ABOUT THIS: EVERYTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGION OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY IS ALLOWED TO GO AND BECOME STRONGER THAN LAW, BUT ALL FORM OF CHRISTIANITY IS THROWN OUT OF THE COUNTRY! WHO'S BEING "DISCRIMINATED" AGAINST? WE CHRISTIANS "TURN THE OTHER CHEEK" LIKE JESUS TAUGHT US TO.</i> (in caps since it was avoided the last time). Everyone just takes advantage of that to get rid of the constrains of the religion that "offends" them. BTW- if you feel something is false, it WILL NOT "offend" you by human nature.Missing: </i>

2005-02-11 [deus-ex-machina]: *sigh* one last message since you didn't message me with that. if someone is offended, it doesn't have to be because it's false... for example, religions offend me (as people do) when they speak self righteously when i don't agree with them. and i was never dampening on christianity... but really, everything that comes up on the matter is christian based. so that was a huge over-reaction, thankyou very much. anyway, message me... i don't want to keep posting, but i am going to watch the page until the topic dies down. please, just frigging message me instead - blackfire66 is starting to get annoyed, i'm not going to stop and 'lose' and so... it's all down to you now, lol.

2005-02-11 [Kurai Tenma]: lol. It's an argumentive debate... but oh well. I'll message you later if I feel the need. You, as well, if you do. Oh, and I wasn't overreacting. I was just stating a fact since you said we are discriminating, and we are by far the worse at being discriminated.

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: You know... You're all perfectly welcome to debate over at HF Gay Marriage. I don't mind at all... it's gone a little quiet after an appeal to reason slowly died... i think the owner got ran off... or something... I don't remember.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: hello...i support HeteroMarriage only,...how are you all tonight?

2005-02-11 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: good, yourself? *high fives RaineDrop*

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: *high fives* a little tired...i got harrassed by [mooncat] on EP for several days for not supporting gays...i simply stated my opinion when asked and didn't press the matter, and then her and a few friends of hers on the wiki jumped me and have been picking on me, calling me "closeminded" and "pigheaded" and all sort of things just because i don't *agree* with *their* opinions...does that seem a little wrong to anyone else? like, if i were to do that to someone that *supported* gays, i would be reported right? why is it that *they* can get away with harrassment?

2005-02-11 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: yeah, they try to play the whole "i'm the victum" card, and its just plain dumb, and honestly, some of these "open minded" people out there have their head open to everything, that anything will go in, and their brains fall out.....so being "closeminded" as far as my God and my beliefs go is quite alright with me.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: they *think* they are open minded, but really aren't...otherwise they would beable to accept us for our beliefs and opinions...

2005-02-11 [Snowboarding Hobitz]: yeah, i agree with that, I mean, i have "bisexual" friends at school, and we're not best friends or anything, but I don't go around preaching to her because I don't agree with her outlook. I don't think homosexuals/bisexuals are born like that, I do fully believe its a choice, I could easly kiss my best girlfriend and start going out with her, but its totally my choice, and if you ask them they say they were born like that, that they remember being young kids and liking other girls etc... I think its just an excuse to hide behind so that its "not my fault"

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: *nods* that is what i always say...*everyone* is sexual, just some are better at controling it than others...and almost everyone has some fantasy of being with another man or another woman at some point...that doesn't make them gay, it makes them sexually curious...the thing is, gays and bis *act* on such things through their *own choices* but then, not wanting to take the blame, say that they were like that was all along...i have a "gay" friend who i dated as a little girl...he liked girls, talked about girls as being "pretty" ot not...he chose to be gay because he wasn't like that at 10...same as with my gay girl friend...she played barbies with me and ken and barbie went together...

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: ...and we giggled about boys and getting married, and where we wanted to get married and how many kids we were going to have...she was not "gay" then...she *chose* to be gay later....

2005-02-11 [Carrick]: You all know that sooner or later you'll hae to accept the fact that love is love. This the same way you reacted to witches in the 16th century and sometimes even now but most people have learned to accept it. I mean do any of you acctually know any gays? I know lots and they seem to be a lot happier than people who havent discovered who they are yet. Enevtually gay rights will be a major part of society and there wont be anything to do about it. Well... you could start a civil war and break up america into two seperate parts... but that didnt work last time.

2005-02-11 [Carrick]: Oh and one more thing before i leave... I have(had) two of my best friends kill themselves because of people who thought they were weird and thought they weren't actually people. They stopped going to church because they said homosexuals were against god's will and you go to hell for it... *waves and walks away satisfied that he probably got a point or two across.* 

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: did you read the previous few comments? They claim to have homosexual friends. I tend to suscribe to the "we're all sexual creatures" theory. I do think that a person's sexual preference is nothing more than just that, a preference. Still... I do not think people choose thier preferences. They may be influenced by their environment/upbringing, but some of it is certainly genetic/developmental. It has nothing to do with the soul... that allways bothered me. I believe the soul to be androgenous (without gender). Sexuality isn't really as big a deal as people make it.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: nope...you didn't because it *is* against gods word and if you believe in god and hell, that is where gays are going...and i know several gays, as i mentioned, and they are all just as messed up and unhappy as the rest of us...i think gays should be shipped away...so there *isn't* a civil war...ever hear of Gay Kindom? let them live there...love is NOT love, love is between a man and a woman, what a man feels for a man or a woman a woman is peverted sexual desires masked by the need and want for companionship and nothing more

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: i don't believe in a soul, or it's gender...i believe that we are all animals with the sole puropse of reproduction...any emotion we attach to the act of "mating" is nothing more than a human trait and does nothing to change sex's underlying and actual purpose...gays go against that, and are unnatural

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: sorry RD... THAT'S why people gang up on you. Why don't we ship off all the Niggers and Jews while we're at it? Even if you don't like what they're doing... they don't diserve to be "shipped off". You opinion seemed harmless until you started talking like that.

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: sex is not purely for reproduction... but I'm sure you won't hear any of it. Being against homosexuality because of religious ideals is one thing. You seem to be against it purely because it's "icky".

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: No, because that would be racist, or anti-Semitism...gays would be happier in Gay Kingdom where they could marry and "live free"...yeah, their population would die out rather quickly, but that is their choice...if they want to be married, let them go there...leave the rest of the world to their traditional marriage

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: i am against gays because it is unnatural...sex's perpose is reproduction...there is no denying that...our whole lives our bodies prepare to reproduce...that is our basic function as any other animal...we as humans are the only animals that attach any emotion to sex, but that doesn't change it's purpose

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: and I'm sure all the other races would be better off being free from the persecution from every other race. Segregation does nothing but cause more hate. Special treatment only causes resentment.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: that is what the gays want though, "special treatment"...they have their gay pride parades, not because they want to be equal...and they are not a race, or a nationality, or a religion...they are nothing they didn't *chose* to be so their for, being "hated" for it is none of my concern...i am "hated" for how i dress, but that is my choice and i live with that, and understand that my *choice* in dress will effect my getting jobs, or what have you

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: allright... then should sterile people be killed? Or at least sent away? Should people that participate in any sort of "deviant" sexual behavior be locked up? Or at the very least denied the right to marry? Is oral sex evil? Is the pleasure of sex evil? Contraceptives? Heck, lets go with everything that's "unnatural": Surgery, medicine, tatoos, power-tools, etc... and the list goes on. "it's not natural" is not a very good argument. There are plenty that are more appropriate.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: sterile people hardly have a choice unless they did it themselves, in which case, they chose not to have children...you don't become gay just because you don't want a baby...the same goes for birth control and so on....sex is for reproduction, and if you are a hetero couple, your sex may lead to a baby, contraceptives help prevent that, but can't *stop* it...i never said sex was bad or "evil" or that oral sex was wrong, (it isn't actually "sex" but lets not get into that) there are a lot of unnatural things that *help* you live...like surgery, and medicine...and things like tattoos are art

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: You're right, many do want special treatment. And you know what? If I could get special treatment, I'de go for it. But nope, straight white males just get blamed for being homophobic, racist, and sexist.

2005-02-11 [Lioness123]: haha, all too true, sadly...

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: you think straight white females have it any better? i don't want special treatment, and unless someone has a handycap, i don't give it

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: if oral sex cannot be considered sex... then why is what homosexuals do considered sex? do Lesbians, then, never actually have sex? In my book, sex does not require penetration. Sex is all about pleasure. If sexual gratification takes place... it's sex. If you choose to go against biology and take contraceptives or if you choose to go against biology and be gay, then how is that different to you if your only reason for being against homosexuality is "it goes against biology". It doesn't work.

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: at least the straight white females can call "sexual harassment" at the drop of a hat, no questions asked. I hate to tell you, but women have quite a bit of power in the work-place. If only for that reason. All you have to do is say some guy told you an innapropriate joke once, while you where in the halls... or heck, if you just say the guy looked up you and down in a "suggestive" way... That's more than enough. Guys... no such power.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: thus why woman make 20% less money than men for the same work right? and lesbians often use dildoes and other things in substatute for the male body, and oral sex is not *technically* sex, i still classify it as sex, and i think it is wrong to do between anyone honestly...gays or heteros...but gays are unnatural in just their act, let alone how they go about it...and contraceptives are used for natural couples who don't want a baby at the moment, they are not going *against* nature, just trying to cheat it a little

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: What then of women who cannot concieve naturaly? they must deliver by C-section. Cutting into the body and removing a fetus is obviously something nature never intended. In fact, nature intended for that mother and child to die.

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: Oh and claiming that oral sex isn't sex is basically only an excuse that young people use to claim that they are still virgins... even if they're still engageing in sexual "activity".

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: cheating nature again...C-sections have saved a lot of lives, not as many as those lost by abortion mind you, but if you have the power to save a life, would you? sometimes mothers can't get pregnant and have invetro...that is man helping nature out, but the woman is still baring a child...sometimes a mother can't deliver the baby because the placenta blocks the cervix, in that case a c-section is needed...those are all cases of us *helping* nature, not going against it

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: yeah...i think that having anal sex to "preserve virginity" or oral for the same reason is BS...i think Virginity is a mental state...a virgin raped is still a virgin to me since she has never freely acted on her sexual desires...a virgin that gives her BF head is not a virgin because she freely engaged in sexual activity of some sort with another

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: then back to contraception. The deal is simple: The couple wants to be pleasured (just as a gay couple would)... only the straight couple has to worry about having children. It's still going against biology no matter how you cut it. And I would argue that even though it would mean that I would never have been born and my mother would be dead now... that as far as biology is concerned "helping it out" is doing nothing more than causeing harm to the gene pool by increasing the number of "defective" genes. More and more babies are being born premature, more and more are being delivered by "unnatural" means...

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: ... sooner or later our being able to have children by "natural" means will no longer matter... then not much longer after that... it will become completly impossible for us to concieve "naturally".

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: sexual "activity" is sexual "activity" That's just the way it is.

2005-02-11 [Lioness123]: I don't think that will ever happen, people enjoy sex too much. plus, if that were to ever happen, we'd all be in a lot of trouble

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: more and more are being bore sick due to their mother's environment, diet, and drugs...any way you cut it, the human genepool when to hell a hundred some odd years ago and we are seeing more and more of it's effects now...back to gays, the difference between gays and hetero couples is, yes, the heteros are doing it for pleasure, but a baby may result, because what they are doing is a natural act...what gays are doing for "pleasure" are just them acting on their own perverted and unnatural desires...those cases are not similar enough to compare...

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: I want to have children, yes, I will eventually have sex for reproduction... but at the moment, I would be having sex simply because I want to act on my desires. Some may even call it perverted. It's about pleasure first... reproduction is secondary. Animals don't have sex because they want to pass on their genes, they have sex because they're "wired" too... or because it feels good. We are the only animals that know anything of the survival of genetic material... all other animlas act out of instinct. Homosexuality also exists in animals as well. the fact that it happens in animals seems to indicate that it could be "natural".

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: oh and I still think people will be having sex... they just won't be able to have a kid without the aid of science.

2005-02-11 [Lioness123]: Lion males will kill the cubs of another male and then mate with the females to pass on his own genes. so I think its hard to say which comes first...pleasure, or passing on its genes

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: actually it *doesn't*happen in animals...if you read the research into that in it's context you would understand that...and actually, animals *do* only care about passing on their genes, thus why they strut, show of streanth, the males show off how healthy they are in hopes of the female picking them as their mate...read of on animals...i studdy them...yes, *we* do it often for pleaser, but that DOESN'T CHANGE IT'S ACTUAL PURPOSE like i said

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: no, they strut and show their strength so that the opposite sex will have sex with them. They DO NOT UNDERSTAND GENETICS. They have no such concept. Any other behavior is instinct. There is no consious acknowlegement of genetics. check out this link: http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html the bonobos have developed "alternative" reasons for sexual contact. They do not allways have sex for reproduction and they are indescriminate about who they will engage in sexual contact with.

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: Granted... the only reason they want to have sex is because they're "wired" to... and they're "wired" to because such wiring increases their likely-hood to reproduce... still the actually animal has no concept of genetics.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: chimps have been known to have sex out of excitement, because the greatapes are all 2 genes off from being HUMAN....they may not understand *why* they have to strut their stuff, but they do it, the reason being to spread good geans...them not having a higher learning to understand that means nothing...they still do it without actually realizing that is exactly what they are doing...because they were "wired" to

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: RD, I know you came here to seek refuge from the persecution you where experiencing on EP... I normally wouldn't argue with people like this but your particular argument just doesn't sit well with me. If you had said you where religious... I would have understood. This, however, just doesn't add up. Again, it seems as if you are only against it because it is "icky".

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: Not two genes off...that's not right at all... I don't know the acutal numbers but it's more than that. If we where just two genes off then all it would reqire would be two retro-mutations(I've forgotten the term for "mutating back") to have a mother give birth to a chimp.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: again, i say it's beause it is unnatural, goes against nature, it is not how the bodys are meant to fit together, it is perverting sex....yes, i am religious, but i like science, and sciance says it is wrong, and they have evinace, and studies you can repeat and look at where god takes faith, and most people just wont accept that as your only reason...so i have 2 (though, i won't *deny* that i think it's "icky" that is an opinion...my fact is it's "unnatural")

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: the chimpanzie has 98% the same genetic code as a human...i have done the reaserch on it, and it is a fun fact you can read on the back of any Chimp zoo card...they are VERY close to humans...thus where the whole evolution theory started...the similarities between us and the great apes was astounding the more we looked into it

2005-02-11 [HiddenFire]: Thank you, that makes your argument that much stronger. If only based on "it's against biology" it is nothing but a house of cards. Freud was known to say "The only abnormal sexual behavior is no sex at all." There are also studies now that show that homosexuality is not a choice, that people cannot change what their preferences are, and so on... quite frankly, I think just about every one of the studies (on both sides) are as biased as they come... each side wants to prove themselves right... or at least the other side wrong.

2005-02-11 [RaineDrop]: that is true, that is why i read *all* studies, on both sides of the matter and i made up my opinions based on all the information i could gather on the topic